Istredd chuckles and nods. "Deal, we will be very irritating before we portal away." That's if Dean ever comes here, which he suspects he has no intention of. This is most likely a problem for Castiel and their group, which includes Geralt, so he makes a note to talk to Yennefer about that later. He might not be close to Geralt, but she may like to be informed.
He puts his back to the wall next to Lucifer since he knows this is a comfortable pose for him and he doesn't mind. He reaches out to snag his hand and hold it for now.
"I doubt he's going to feel boring to the people who care about him. I don't know that I fully understand demons from your realm, is he someone entirely new or is the demon just him with less humanity?" He's uncertain if this is a possession situation or not. He suspects it isn't, it seems more likely the latter is true, but it's important to know for the future. Or when talking with Castiel.
"Oh, he's still boring. A dull knife, knowing exactly where to cut."
Honestly he'd likely be easier to ignore, once they just turn off everything he says as useless. When you only spit vitriol Dean and nothing of substance, people stop listening. Word of Advice from Lucifer.
"He's not particularly new. It's not unheard of for a human to become corrupted on Earth and become a demon, it's just extremely unlikely these days. Typically they're made in Hell, and then they possess a human. They get exorcised, they just hop into another vessel; they don't need permission like angels do. Dean just is. His soul, if there's anything left to it, must be more tattered than it was when he was in Hell."
Pause.
"Oh yeah, he was in Hell, once. It was... mmmmm... kind of a long story, actually. Prophecy is like that." Locks and their requirements are like that. "But eventually he broke and took up torturing other souls so that he wouldn't be tortured anymore. Learned under the Grand Torturer himself." Why he knows exactly where to spin his knife and his words. "Excellent student, so I've heard." Wasted potential until now, apparently.
Lucifer divulges this information like he's discussing the weather. It's just normal to him.
"Would the Mark be enough to corrupt him into one? When he died, or came near to death, he may have given up on fighting it, so it took over." Lucifer is an archangel so the corrupting influence wouldn't do the same thing to him. He doesn't know if a normal human just hasn't gotten it before, so this would be all new territory if so.
He logs all this away as information to remember about their world. He knew angels possess vessels obviously, but now the demons do too ... but not every single one is a possession if Dean is an example. Complicated mess. The mages were far more focused on the problems of people than anything like this.
As for the torture, well, who is he to judge on that? Who knows if he would do the same as Dean, in the same position? He probably would.
"Even if it is irrational to hear what the demon is saying and not know the human wouldn't mean it, that is how feelings are sometimes. If you weren't yourself and were saying cruel things to me, I wouldn't be so strong as to be immune to it."
Logic all day long and it still probably would hurt.
"The Mark would need him to be alive. It just needs a living body for it to be a parasite to. It wouldn't be out of the question for it to kickstart Dean as a demon if it's what it took to get his body moving again."
It is all very complicated and it should be remembered that Lucifer is the sole creator that crafted that revolting mess.
An affront to humans, an affront to angels.
... Lucifer was extremely angry when he made demons, clearly.
"Well." What does he say to that? That's Istredd's weak, then? But no, maybe if it was the reverse, Lucifer wouldn't do so hot either. Call him a monster with the mental chords to back it and see what state of the devil came out the other side. The bond would make a scenario much worse in that regard, I suppose.
"That may very well be what happened. Are there any cures for demons? I assume Castiel already knows what it could be on your sphere." The curious thing is if there is any difference considering it happened here, but there are no demon possessions here as far as he can tell, so it's best to go with what makes sense for their sphere.
Istredd's really only asking out of interest and to offer Castiel sympathy later on, he has no intention of them getting involved outside of advice or compassion. This is not really their problem and they would only make it worse at this point, of that he feels sure.
Istredd has a great deal of emotional power over Lucifer which he is aware of. It's a double-edged blade and a two-way street. We know all the things to say to each other that would hurt the most. He squeezes his hand. So good thing neither of us is likely to be possessed by a demon.
Edited 2023-06-15 01:32 (UTC)
trufax: Istredd IS more likely to find out before Lucifer, I asked people LOL
Which turns out there are several things Lucifer doesn't know, but hey. It'll be an interesting surprise whenever someone feels like telling Lucifer, on the bottom of everyone's list, the truth. Istredd is more likely to find out before Lucifer, courtesy of pitfriendshipismagic or whatever t-shirts the trauma crew are making for themselves.
"I had a demon possess my vessel once--who just happened to be Castiel at the time. It was disgusting."
So. Y'know. It is actually possible, just hopefully unlikely to be possible here.
"I'll check in with Castiel. I know you already told him." Which means he would be checking in more as emotional support than actual information, as he has no experience or skill to help with a demon run wild. He probably will end up finding out some details before Lucifer, and he can always tell him after. If nothing else, so he knows whether to expect Demon Dean more than once in his Horizon.
Istredd's eyebrows furrow and his nose scrunches. "Your sphere is a confusing and violent place." As if Lucifer doesn't already know that, but still. His sphere is cruel and cold, and it has monsters and supernatural things within it too, but he doesn't think it's quite this mad. Or he's simply outside of the madness.
"They're not going to give up on him. I wouldn't." Istredd stayed in love with Yennefer while they were separated for sixty-ish years. He is not someone who gives up easily. "Geralt has handled many monsters and creatures, he can probably handle this."
"Dog eat dog world," he says plainly. "Hell functions heavily on humans wanting to sell their souls for absolutely anything they think they need and can't get themselves. Whether they think they can't, actually need support, or are just too pathetic to lift a finger, looking for that easy solution."
Lucifer may've made demons but humanity endlessly keeps the machine flowing, just as predicted.
He thinks Istredd should give up, if it ever came to it. But no amount of telling him would ever make a dent and Lucifer's only hope is Yennefer forcing him, violently if necessary, because otherwise Istredd is just doomed to go down with him.
Istredd tilts his head to look at him, contemplating. "How do you grapple with the reality in your mind that you're romantically involved with someone from a species you loathe? Do you think I'm an exception and that's how it's rationalized?"
There is no judgment in his tone as of now, he is genuinely curious. It's not as if he likes humans much either, but he also thinks all people, species, races have their own issues. He doesn't have a bad opinion of angels for example, since they don't exist in his sphere (as far as he knows).
But the question does give the kind of 'you may want to be careful in your response' energy.
"I think you're the exception for me being romantically involved with anyone," he says, and it isn't an attempt to mislead, or distract Istredd with something he'd want to hear. It's just an important fact to note. "It's easier to think of, mm, different 'spheres' having different branches of humanity, certainly."
He slides down the wall, entirely so that he can crouch and set his elbows to his knees, taking his hand back so that he can press his fingertips together in thought. He is not being careful with his response but he's still thinking about it, so that must count for something?
It is the most basic of his rationale, that initial lattice structure that kept him going for so long. That if enough other universes exist, potentially outside of his Father's hands, then maybe he could acknowledge them as other.
But for all he knows there are people than just the Winchesters and his brothers from his world.
He's had something like this conversation with Kyle, with Castiel. It never gets better, although maybe it has to an extent. He has yet to acknowledge how helpful the Castiel Cave Conversation has been for him.
But even separated from his Father, his world, and those pesky little creations still cause Lucifer problems. Ignoring the corruption, getting them kicked out of Eden probably did them a favor. God likely would've done much worse to them, eventually, when he got bored.
"I never quite knew how hard they had it," he admits, and that sting can be felt mentally. "Oh, sure, the ones in the Garden? They had everything given to them, their Paradise. I-I mean how did they even know they had perfection without a shadow of darkness, huh? It makes sense that after, all their descendants, were just over-saturated with pettiness, ugh sickening. Wanted their hand held for everything, cried at a slap of the wrist... never-ending."
A huff. He taps his pressed-together pointer fingers to his lips a few times. "But. Their whole... soul-thing." He makes a scoff. "Never understood the breadth of it. Angels could never know--we weren't allowed it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not--I'm not saying I think they've changed. That they've gotten better in thousands of years. Truthfully, I think they've gotten worse, as a whole."
He looks up at Istredd. Castiel didn't tell Lucifer 'I told you so' but he may as well have. "But watered-down as I am, even with the scope it... gives me," congrats he didn't say cursed, "it's still incomparable to that force of a soul and you, and them, and all of it, go through it every day and keep going where it would take down the whole of Heaven if they had to experience it."
'The depth and breadth of their emotions, the power of them. It's overwhelming. We think of ourselves as stronger, more resilient. But we aren't carrying a storm around at all times. If that's the force of a soul, I understand why they're so powerful.'
Tch.
He looks away again. "I hate the whole of Earth. I hate the whole of Heaven. I hate the whole of Hell. But with all three--wait, no, scratch Hell off that list--but with the first two, I can acknowledge tiny pinpricks being something else. Unexpected, carrying a storm I could never handle but they do it again and again, or being the ones to weather it." Humanity, and angels. "So that's how I grapple with it."
In summary: he doesn't actually understand humanity (nor does he want to) and some of y'all don't suck and That's Okay because damn your lives are a bit harder than he gave anyone credit for. Except the humans of Eden. They deserved to be kicked out.
"Right, I am special, point well made." He is teasing a little bit, to show that he isn't coming at this from a tense angle. Istredd will always be the exception when it comes to that point. He doesn't think it speaks to the greater question of how Lucifer views the fact he cares for some humans vs. the hatred he also displays for them.
Istredd is very used to Lucifer's favorite physical poses so he lets go of Lucifer's hand when he starts to slide down the wall. He uses his hands a lot when he's being expressive. Istredd listens in his quiet, contemplative way, when he hangs on every word but also lets them get all their thoughts out instead of interrupting.
He slides down the wall himself as Lucifer talks about souls, something he has never given much thought about until becoming involved with an angel, but he doesn't crouch. He sits comfortably with his long legs stretched out and his head tilted toward Lucifer, watchful, open and interested.
"I have my own complicated feelings about humanity and my place in it. I'm technically human but I was born something else too. The average human wouldn't really see me as one of them." And since Istredd puts so much emphasis on being a mage, it's easy for him to see that more as his identity. He doesn't love humanity, in fact he has pretty bad opinions of many of them himself. He's just never really been interested in painting everyone with one brush. Mages are corrupt, humans are corrupt, elves are corrupt. They're all capable of a variety of things.
"I don't think ... I really understand the difference the soul makes. We share a psychic bond, I know you have thoughts and feelings as strong as mine, so what is powerful about mine that you don't have?"
"I could touch yours for proof of its existence but it would be excruciatingly painful for you," he says. But he knows it's there. It's not just some thing of faith. "A single soul can produce an equivalent amount of light to a hundred suns. They hold substantial power. To the supernatural world they're better currency than any form of money. A tiny radiant nuke, unable to be broken by anything. Together? Castiel used something-upwards to fifty-thousand souls to kill one of my brothers, Raphael. An archangel." And then he went to play God but that's quite a tangent.
"Without it humans are... shells. No concept of right or wrong, no ties to hold them back, no emotions, feelings. Just emptiness." And then comes some of Lucifer's own confusion because he doesn't have a soul but, "I don't know what happens to angels when they lose their grace. I don't know why it opens up... more. We're not human just... I don't know, adjacent, but... all I can figure is it opens up a gap where God would've tacked on a soul if he ever thought to give us anything. Some dregs of our grace just getting tacky and unreasonable."
"You don't have to prove anything, I know they exist." Souls, he means, in a general sense. They just don't exist in terms that Lucifer is using now in his sphere. Probably there are people who think souls are powerful, but to this specificity, it is something new. Istredd's never given it this type of thought, but he also isn't from a sphere where it is this big of a subject.
Castiel using fifty-thousand souls to kill an archangel is a surprising bit of information, and it does give some semblance of scope in power levels.
Istredd reaches out to touch Lucifer's cheek and gently try to turn his head to face him, caressing his cheekbone. "Is that why you're afraid you'll lose all of this when you get your grace back? Because you're only like this since you're lacking?" It is a tough position to be in, to want him to get his power back so he can be happy, even if it comes with a potential personal loss.
"I don't disagree with you about humans in a general sense. My sphere is cruel and violent too." He traces the curve of Lucifer's jaw. "But I am human, Lucifer. I may be your crying ape, but I still am one."
Ah, how he'd love to dance around such a question, but the sudden damn eye contact and the very direct question makes it extremely hard to say anything but the truth, "Yes." Because that is the trade off, as far as he knows. All his power back, all his newly-learned emotions gone.
"You're just one of the ones that don't suck," he says. He continues, now treading very carefully, voice soft, knowing he's entering risky territory, "But you--your organization? Your Brotherhood? Who kidnap children, regardless of it being for 'their protection', and rob them of a life, make them fear for death or transformation, that only are useful as a power source if they fail? That 'whole'? Is terrible. There may be a handful, like you, that shouldn't be," mmm, he won't say hated, he doesn't know enough to make that allegory, "ah, that don't suck, but the entire scope?" He tilts his head. Istredd did say his own sphere was violent and cruel. "That's my feelings on humanity."
It's tragic and just like them, to probably only get one or the other, Lucifer in all his power but lost to them, or Lucifer damaged but loving. Istredd asked the direct question because he knew the answer already but it had to be said. "I guess just enjoy it while we can, then, right?" If they get a few decades before it ends, it's better than none.
He is already feeling slightly vulnerable because of that, but there is a flicker of warning in his eyes when Lucifer brings up the Brotherhood. His hand drops away. There is no easy way to feel about it. "That's just ... how it has to be. It's necessary." Something twists in his stomach. "I know that sounds like I'm defending them but I am one of the rebellious ones. I push back." And yet he comes back when they call. Like all of his class, and the classes before him. The biggest rebellion he can accomplish is arguing, not actually escaping.
This is a testy subject because childhood brainwashing through fear and control, not always easy to shake. And he knows that, logically, but again, emotions. Difficult. "It's best to not dwell, that's all. What happened, happened." Obviously a thing he's told himself before in order to move on and focus on his life.
So much Lucifer can be a hissing cat when touched wrong that he's likely risking similar when he clicks his tongue and turns in his spot of the floor to face Istredd, folding his legs before reaching out both hands to clasp hands on Istredd's shoulders. They're both so great at running away and putting distance and then itching at each other's boundaries.
"'It's necessary.' Do you know how many times those words have been used... for so many things? My Father testing his subjects in a petty fight against lesser gods. My Father flooding the planet in an act of divine retribution. It's necessary." His tone is still carefully soft but there is an underlying, almost desperate, knowing edge of 'I know you're not this stupid.'
"It sounds like you're defending them because you are. Like I defend my family, Istredd. That's what you sound like. Because you have to. Because it's where you came from." They are not talking about Lucifer and humanity anymore. "Because they made you--but it does not make how they went about things just. It does not mean they shouldn't have changed. How much is your world violent and cruel because every aspect of it has sunk into its ways out of necessity, to push back at each other institutions?"
It is telling that Istredd tenses instead of leans into the touches for once, although he does manage to force himself to relax. By a tiny bit. It's more a sense of general discomfort since this is not a topic they talk about. Once you become a mage, the past is over with, and you focus on the rest of your life. No one wants to address what they went through because it is understood to be cruel but necessary.
Istredd isn't stupid but he also has always played along with that song and dance, and while he's always been vocally critical of the Brotherhood, just as Yennefer is, he's still one of them. "Of course it's not just. I haven't even told you everything that happens." He takes a deep breath in and out and reaches up to rest his hand on top of Lucifer's on his shoulders.
"Listen, Lucifer. I never had family, I was never loved, I was raised in fear, ambition, and isolation. And even if I wanted to have a family now, I can't. That is terrible, I agree, but the truth is, I am one of the lucky ones." Because he lived, he's not an eel, he didn't die from Chaos or in the most recent battle the mages were forced into, where Yennefer almost died. He's spent a fairly peaceful life as a scholar, he's very lucky. "So I don't dwell on the unfairness of the past."
In that way, he is letting the Brotherhood off the hook, but it's also how he moves forward. "There are terrible people in the Brotherhood, but some of them are just me in a few hundred years. We all came from the same place." Istredd wants to think he's different but is he? It's not as if he's pushed for reform or tried to save the young mages there now. He ran away and stayed there as long as he could.
'I haven't even told you everything that happens.'
Lucifer would facepalm if his hands weren't on Istredd's shoulders.
"Look, I'm not saying badmouth them like I do humanity," he says. "But don't apologize for the things they've done--I know I'm just at fault for that."
He says it only because he could see Istredd putting it out there and he's just pointing it out before Istredd can. He'll defend his Father in the same breath as talking against him. He'll talk against him but the moment someone else says similar his ingrained reactions rise back up. So he gets it, he does, and that's why he's even trying to tell Istredd to not make up apologies for them.
"Don't put it under a simple 'it's necessary' banner like you can actually stomach it."
Edited (sentence order was bothering me ) 2023-06-15 06:49 (UTC)
"It's difficult when the people you hate are also the people you love, isn't it?" Istredd knows that Lucifer struggles with the same thing with his father and brothers. Hate and fury and betrayal at them, but the desire to be loved by them too. "Not that I would say I love any of them, but I care." Maybe he would say he loved Stregobor once. Enough to betray Yennefer and be his heir of a sort, although some of that was survival tactics too. It took him longer than it should for him to turn against the man.
"I appreciate what you're trying to do here, Lucifer, and you are right, there is no excuse for the way the Brotherhood functions. We're trapped in the cycle, even if I wanted to change the system and help the younger mages, I wouldn't be allowed to. I'm not sure I'd survive the attempt." It is hard to say since people really do not bother. But to attempt any altering of their lifeforce, the only remaining children they can mold into mages, it could be dangerous.
He smiles faintly at him, moving his hand to Lucifer's cheek again. "I like that you care." They both know at this point that Istredd's had very little of that.
The touch at least means he's survived the sensitive issue unscathed. It doesn't help that if he's brought it up before it was typically aimed to leave a mark.
That wasn't his goal this time.
"Someone's got to talk to you about the issues you try to shove in a closet with all your skeletons and try to avoid," he says easily, grinning slightly, "who better than me?"
Istredd can tell the difference between bringing it up out of care and bringing it up out of snark or spite. He laughs at the comment because they are now both more aware of how this two-way street has been leaning in one direction too much. Istredd is responsible for letting Lucifer be there for him too.
"How dare you use my own tactics and good intentions against me."
Istredd is actually worse about bottling things up than Lucifer because he is very subtle and withdrawn about it, easy to hide behind logic and quiet emotional distance. It's difficult to open up. But he does want to, as much as it makes him squirm.
He leans in to steal a kiss from him because he can. "I keep telling you, it's annoying how good at this you are." Teasing of course, he loves it.
"If I'm using your own tactics, should you not too get credit?"
After all, Lucifer knows shit about relationships. Hell, Lucifer knows shit about friendships. He's just making a tower from the building blocks around him, who all equally have their own faults.
"No." He moves onto his knees to face Lucifer and runs his hand up shirt, hanging them over his shoulders in a semi-embrace. Affectionate and comfortable. "You get the credit for your work." Lucifer did this himself. He may have learned from experiencing, but it's still his choice. And Istredd will always give him the credit.
"Sometimes I just really ...." Istredd smiles and leans his forehead against Lucifer's. "Love you." It could come with a dozen demons threatening his life every day and it wouldn't matter to him. It's not like he has to say it, Lucifer can feel it radiate out of him daily. "I know, I'm obnoxiously sentimental."
"Extremely obnoxiously," he agrees, weakly, because he's said it before that Istredd's going to kill him with kindness one of these days. That it feels like an overwhelming likely scenario instead of just a joke.
But it's also more like a few hundred demons wondering what the hell this one mage did to their father/creator, if there's ever a bleed between worlds, anyway. He's made up more bogus theories than that before.
"Alright, alright, I won't be modest, I'm amazing."
Istredd's love and romanticism can be intense, something only Lucifer and Yennefer really understand, but he probably needs to be this way to pull them clawing down into a relationship. And joy has been found because of it. He said he was going to enjoy this while they still had it, before Lucifer lost all of it becoming an archangel again.
He pulls his head back to look at him, raising an eyebrow.
"Did you say you had Dertsi eat him?"
Circling back to the start, since the terror and concern over Dean is now long past.
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He puts his back to the wall next to Lucifer since he knows this is a comfortable pose for him and he doesn't mind. He reaches out to snag his hand and hold it for now.
"I doubt he's going to feel boring to the people who care about him. I don't know that I fully understand demons from your realm, is he someone entirely new or is the demon just him with less humanity?" He's uncertain if this is a possession situation or not. He suspects it isn't, it seems more likely the latter is true, but it's important to know for the future. Or when talking with Castiel.
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Honestly he'd likely be easier to ignore, once they just turn off everything he says as useless. When you only spit vitriol Dean and nothing of substance, people stop listening. Word of Advice from Lucifer.
"He's not particularly new. It's not unheard of for a human to become corrupted on Earth and become a demon, it's just extremely unlikely these days. Typically they're made in Hell, and then they possess a human. They get exorcised, they just hop into another vessel; they don't need permission like angels do. Dean just is. His soul, if there's anything left to it, must be more tattered than it was when he was in Hell."
Pause.
"Oh yeah, he was in Hell, once. It was... mmmmm... kind of a long story, actually. Prophecy is like that." Locks and their requirements are like that. "But eventually he broke and took up torturing other souls so that he wouldn't be tortured anymore. Learned under the Grand Torturer himself." Why he knows exactly where to spin his knife and his words. "Excellent student, so I've heard." Wasted potential until now, apparently.
Lucifer divulges this information like he's discussing the weather. It's just normal to him.
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He logs all this away as information to remember about their world. He knew angels possess vessels obviously, but now the demons do too ... but not every single one is a possession if Dean is an example. Complicated mess. The mages were far more focused on the problems of people than anything like this.
As for the torture, well, who is he to judge on that? Who knows if he would do the same as Dean, in the same position? He probably would.
"Even if it is irrational to hear what the demon is saying and not know the human wouldn't mean it, that is how feelings are sometimes. If you weren't yourself and were saying cruel things to me, I wouldn't be so strong as to be immune to it."
Logic all day long and it still probably would hurt.
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It is all very complicated and it should be remembered that Lucifer is the sole creator that crafted that revolting mess.
An affront to humans, an affront to angels.
... Lucifer was extremely angry when he made demons, clearly.
"Well." What does he say to that? That's Istredd's weak, then? But no, maybe if it was the reverse, Lucifer wouldn't do so hot either. Call him a monster with the mental chords to back it and see what state of the devil came out the other side. The bond would make a scenario much worse in that regard, I suppose.
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Istredd's really only asking out of interest and to offer Castiel sympathy later on, he has no intention of them getting involved outside of advice or compassion. This is not really their problem and they would only make it worse at this point, of that he feels sure.
Istredd has a great deal of emotional power over Lucifer which he is aware of. It's a double-edged blade and a two-way street. We know all the things to say to each other that would hurt the most. He squeezes his hand. So good thing neither of us is likely to be possessed by a demon.
trufax: Istredd IS more likely to find out before Lucifer, I asked people LOL
Which turns out there are several things Lucifer doesn't know, but hey. It'll be an interesting surprise whenever someone feels like telling Lucifer, on the bottom of everyone's list, the truth. Istredd is more likely to find out before Lucifer, courtesy of pitfriendshipismagic or whatever t-shirts the trauma crew are making for themselves.
"I had a demon possess my vessel once--who just happened to be Castiel at the time. It was disgusting."
So. Y'know. It is actually possible, just hopefully unlikely to be possible here.
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Istredd's eyebrows furrow and his nose scrunches. "Your sphere is a confusing and violent place." As if Lucifer doesn't already know that, but still. His sphere is cruel and cold, and it has monsters and supernatural things within it too, but he doesn't think it's quite this mad. Or he's simply outside of the madness.
"They're not going to give up on him. I wouldn't." Istredd stayed in love with Yennefer while they were separated for sixty-ish years. He is not someone who gives up easily. "Geralt has handled many monsters and creatures, he can probably handle this."
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Lucifer may've made demons but humanity endlessly keeps the machine flowing, just as predicted.
He thinks Istredd should give up, if it ever came to it. But no amount of telling him would ever make a dent and Lucifer's only hope is Yennefer forcing him, violently if necessary, because otherwise Istredd is just doomed to go down with him.
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There is no judgment in his tone as of now, he is genuinely curious. It's not as if he likes humans much either, but he also thinks all people, species, races have their own issues. He doesn't have a bad opinion of angels for example, since they don't exist in his sphere (as far as he knows).
But the question does give the kind of 'you may want to be careful in your response' energy.
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He slides down the wall, entirely so that he can crouch and set his elbows to his knees, taking his hand back so that he can press his fingertips together in thought. He is not being careful with his response but he's still thinking about it, so that must count for something?
It is the most basic of his rationale, that initial lattice structure that kept him going for so long. That if enough other universes exist, potentially outside of his Father's hands, then maybe he could acknowledge them as other.
But for all he knows there are people than just the Winchesters and his brothers from his world.
He's had something like this conversation with Kyle, with Castiel. It never gets better, although maybe it has to an extent. He has yet to acknowledge how helpful the Castiel Cave Conversation has been for him.
But even separated from his Father, his world, and those pesky little creations still cause Lucifer problems. Ignoring the corruption, getting them kicked out of Eden probably did them a favor. God likely would've done much worse to them, eventually, when he got bored.
"I never quite knew how hard they had it," he admits, and that sting can be felt mentally. "Oh, sure, the ones in the Garden? They had everything given to them, their Paradise. I-I mean how did they even know they had perfection without a shadow of darkness, huh? It makes sense that after, all their descendants, were just over-saturated with pettiness, ugh sickening. Wanted their hand held for everything, cried at a slap of the wrist... never-ending."
A huff. He taps his pressed-together pointer fingers to his lips a few times. "But. Their whole... soul-thing." He makes a scoff. "Never understood the breadth of it. Angels could never know--we weren't allowed it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not--I'm not saying I think they've changed. That they've gotten better in thousands of years. Truthfully, I think they've gotten worse, as a whole."
He looks up at Istredd. Castiel didn't tell Lucifer 'I told you so' but he may as well have. "But watered-down as I am, even with the scope it... gives me," congrats he didn't say cursed, "it's still incomparable to that force of a soul and you, and them, and all of it, go through it every day and keep going where it would take down the whole of Heaven if they had to experience it."
'The depth and breadth of their emotions, the power of them. It's overwhelming. We think of ourselves as stronger, more resilient. But we aren't carrying a storm around at all times. If that's the force of a soul, I understand why they're so powerful.'
Tch.
He looks away again. "I hate the whole of Earth. I hate the whole of Heaven. I hate the whole of Hell. But with all three--wait, no, scratch Hell off that list--but with the first two, I can acknowledge tiny pinpricks being something else. Unexpected, carrying a storm I could never handle but they do it again and again, or being the ones to weather it." Humanity, and angels. "So that's how I grapple with it."
In summary: he doesn't actually understand humanity (nor does he want to) and some of y'all don't suck and That's Okay because damn your lives are a bit harder than he gave anyone credit for. Except the humans of Eden. They deserved to be kicked out.
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Istredd is very used to Lucifer's favorite physical poses so he lets go of Lucifer's hand when he starts to slide down the wall. He uses his hands a lot when he's being expressive. Istredd listens in his quiet, contemplative way, when he hangs on every word but also lets them get all their thoughts out instead of interrupting.
He slides down the wall himself as Lucifer talks about souls, something he has never given much thought about until becoming involved with an angel, but he doesn't crouch. He sits comfortably with his long legs stretched out and his head tilted toward Lucifer, watchful, open and interested.
"I have my own complicated feelings about humanity and my place in it. I'm technically human but I was born something else too. The average human wouldn't really see me as one of them." And since Istredd puts so much emphasis on being a mage, it's easy for him to see that more as his identity. He doesn't love humanity, in fact he has pretty bad opinions of many of them himself. He's just never really been interested in painting everyone with one brush. Mages are corrupt, humans are corrupt, elves are corrupt. They're all capable of a variety of things.
"I don't think ... I really understand the difference the soul makes. We share a psychic bond, I know you have thoughts and feelings as strong as mine, so what is powerful about mine that you don't have?"
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"Without it humans are... shells. No concept of right or wrong, no ties to hold them back, no emotions, feelings. Just emptiness." And then comes some of Lucifer's own confusion because he doesn't have a soul but, "I don't know what happens to angels when they lose their grace. I don't know why it opens up... more. We're not human just... I don't know, adjacent, but... all I can figure is it opens up a gap where God would've tacked on a soul if he ever thought to give us anything. Some dregs of our grace just getting tacky and unreasonable."
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Castiel using fifty-thousand souls to kill an archangel is a surprising bit of information, and it does give some semblance of scope in power levels.
Istredd reaches out to touch Lucifer's cheek and gently try to turn his head to face him, caressing his cheekbone. "Is that why you're afraid you'll lose all of this when you get your grace back? Because you're only like this since you're lacking?" It is a tough position to be in, to want him to get his power back so he can be happy, even if it comes with a potential personal loss.
"I don't disagree with you about humans in a general sense. My sphere is cruel and violent too." He traces the curve of Lucifer's jaw. "But I am human, Lucifer. I may be your crying ape, but I still am one."
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"You're just one of the ones that don't suck," he says. He continues, now treading very carefully, voice soft, knowing he's entering risky territory, "But you--your organization? Your Brotherhood? Who kidnap children, regardless of it being for 'their protection', and rob them of a life, make them fear for death or transformation, that only are useful as a power source if they fail? That 'whole'? Is terrible. There may be a handful, like you, that shouldn't be," mmm, he won't say hated, he doesn't know enough to make that allegory, "ah, that don't suck, but the entire scope?" He tilts his head. Istredd did say his own sphere was violent and cruel. "That's my feelings on humanity."
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He is already feeling slightly vulnerable because of that, but there is a flicker of warning in his eyes when Lucifer brings up the Brotherhood. His hand drops away. There is no easy way to feel about it. "That's just ... how it has to be. It's necessary." Something twists in his stomach. "I know that sounds like I'm defending them but I am one of the rebellious ones. I push back." And yet he comes back when they call. Like all of his class, and the classes before him. The biggest rebellion he can accomplish is arguing, not actually escaping.
This is a testy subject because childhood brainwashing through fear and control, not always easy to shake. And he knows that, logically, but again, emotions. Difficult. "It's best to not dwell, that's all. What happened, happened." Obviously a thing he's told himself before in order to move on and focus on his life.
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"'It's necessary.' Do you know how many times those words have been used... for so many things? My Father testing his subjects in a petty fight against lesser gods. My Father flooding the planet in an act of divine retribution. It's necessary." His tone is still carefully soft but there is an underlying, almost desperate, knowing edge of 'I know you're not this stupid.'
"It sounds like you're defending them because you are. Like I defend my family, Istredd. That's what you sound like. Because you have to. Because it's where you came from." They are not talking about Lucifer and humanity anymore. "Because they made you--but it does not make how they went about things just. It does not mean they shouldn't have changed. How much is your world violent and cruel because every aspect of it has sunk into its ways out of necessity, to push back at each other institutions?"
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Istredd isn't stupid but he also has always played along with that song and dance, and while he's always been vocally critical of the Brotherhood, just as Yennefer is, he's still one of them. "Of course it's not just. I haven't even told you everything that happens." He takes a deep breath in and out and reaches up to rest his hand on top of Lucifer's on his shoulders.
"Listen, Lucifer. I never had family, I was never loved, I was raised in fear, ambition, and isolation. And even if I wanted to have a family now, I can't. That is terrible, I agree, but the truth is, I am one of the lucky ones." Because he lived, he's not an eel, he didn't die from Chaos or in the most recent battle the mages were forced into, where Yennefer almost died. He's spent a fairly peaceful life as a scholar, he's very lucky. "So I don't dwell on the unfairness of the past."
In that way, he is letting the Brotherhood off the hook, but it's also how he moves forward. "There are terrible people in the Brotherhood, but some of them are just me in a few hundred years. We all came from the same place." Istredd wants to think he's different but is he? It's not as if he's pushed for reform or tried to save the young mages there now. He ran away and stayed there as long as he could.
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Lucifer would facepalm if his hands weren't on Istredd's shoulders.
"Look, I'm not saying badmouth them like I do humanity," he says. "But don't apologize for the things they've done--I know I'm just at fault for that."
He says it only because he could see Istredd putting it out there and he's just pointing it out before Istredd can. He'll defend his Father in the same breath as talking against him. He'll talk against him but the moment someone else says similar his ingrained reactions rise back up. So he gets it, he does, and that's why he's even trying to tell Istredd to not make up apologies for them.
"Don't put it under a simple 'it's necessary' banner like you can actually stomach it."
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"I appreciate what you're trying to do here, Lucifer, and you are right, there is no excuse for the way the Brotherhood functions. We're trapped in the cycle, even if I wanted to change the system and help the younger mages, I wouldn't be allowed to. I'm not sure I'd survive the attempt." It is hard to say since people really do not bother. But to attempt any altering of their lifeforce, the only remaining children they can mold into mages, it could be dangerous.
He smiles faintly at him, moving his hand to Lucifer's cheek again. "I like that you care." They both know at this point that Istredd's had very little of that.
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That wasn't his goal this time.
"Someone's got to talk to you about the issues you try to shove in a closet with all your skeletons and try to avoid," he says easily, grinning slightly, "who better than me?"
Because Istredd. Kept doing it. To him.
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"How dare you use my own tactics and good intentions against me."
Istredd is actually worse about bottling things up than Lucifer because he is very subtle and withdrawn about it, easy to hide behind logic and quiet emotional distance. It's difficult to open up. But he does want to, as much as it makes him squirm.
He leans in to steal a kiss from him because he can. "I keep telling you, it's annoying how good at this you are." Teasing of course, he loves it.
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After all, Lucifer knows shit about relationships. Hell, Lucifer knows shit about friendships. He's just making a tower from the building blocks around him, who all equally have their own faults.
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"Sometimes I just really ...." Istredd smiles and leans his forehead against Lucifer's. "Love you." It could come with a dozen demons threatening his life every day and it wouldn't matter to him. It's not like he has to say it, Lucifer can feel it radiate out of him daily. "I know, I'm obnoxiously sentimental."
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But it's also more like a few hundred demons wondering what the hell this one mage did to their father/creator, if there's ever a bleed between worlds, anyway. He's made up more bogus theories than that before.
"Alright, alright, I won't be modest, I'm amazing."
He is definitely deflecting.
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Istredd's love and romanticism can be intense, something only Lucifer and Yennefer really understand, but he probably needs to be this way to pull them clawing down into a relationship. And joy has been found because of it. He said he was going to enjoy this while they still had it, before Lucifer lost all of it becoming an archangel again.
He pulls his head back to look at him, raising an eyebrow.
"Did you say you had Dertsi eat him?"
Circling back to the start, since the terror and concern over Dean is now long past.
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for our Sanity we should wrap this soon LOL
LOL wrap with them making out.
A++